ANDREW MCAFEE:
I’m walking away from the computer-based definition of a geek, which was kind of where it started. My definition has two parts. For me a geek is somebody who gets obsessed with a hard problem and is willing to embrace unconventional solutions.
The patron saint of geeks is probably Maria Montessori, who about 100 years ago got obsessed with the problem of how you educate young children best, and came up with the Montessori educational method, which is this radical departure from the industrial scale tipe of schools that was dominant then, and sadly still dominant now. Think about Maria Montessori when you think about a geek.
ADI IGNATIUS:
How do you define the “geek way” that you’re talking about in the book?
ANDREW MCAFEE:
The particular geeks I got excited about that led me to write the book were not educational geeks like Maria Montessori, they were business geeks. They were a group of people concentrated on—but not exclusive to—the West Coast of the US who got obsessed with this problem of, “How do we run a company in an age of really fast technological change and lots of uncertainty? And in particular, how do we avoid some of the classic dysfunctions of the internet era?”
The geek way is what they’ve come up with. It’s the business model, or the culture, or the set of norms that they’ve settled on to try to accomplish that really hard goal.
ADI IGNATIUS:
It’s sort of people who nerd out on, in this case, management, right? Processes of management.
ANDREW MCAFEE:
“Obsessive maverick” is my preferred phrase for a geek. And the obsessive mavericks that I got really interested in were the ones who dove in, again, on this problem of, “How do we run a company and keep doing well in our markets and avoid the dysfunctions that seem to plague so many successful companies as they get older and bigger? How do we avoid those dysfunctions? How do we do something that’s higher performing, more sustainable, and a better place to work?”
ADI IGNATIUS:
As I read the book, some of those attributes you talked about, they had to do with speed, they had to do with experimentation. Is this just another term for being digital, or for applying design thinking of the business? Are we talking the same thing here?
ANDREW MCAFEE:
No, I don’t think so. Adi, you remember Quibi, right, the Jeffrey Katzenberg-led video startup? It was going to do short-form videos and it was going to change the way we consume entertainment.
Quibi was entirely digital. It was a completely digital enterprise. It was a miserable failure. They raised $1.75 billion. They shut down within 200 days of their launch. It was just a catastrophe. It was a completely digital enterprise.
Netflix is a geek company. They follow all four of my great geek norms of science, ownership, speed and openness. And I think their results speak for themselves.
Geek for me is entirely separate from digital. You can be a non-digital geek, and you can certainly be very digital and not geeky at all.
ADI IGNATIUS:
The Quibi thing is an interesting example. I guess what was missing from your framework was the openness. You had a powerful guy who had been successful, who wasn’t listening.
ANDREW MCAFEE:
Not listening to his peers, to his colleagues, to his advisor. He didn’t appear to be a great listener, which is this kind of stereotypical trap that a lot of industrial-era companies fall into. Tech leaders also fall into this trap quite often. You become enamored of your own success and you really stop listening. It’s incredibly common.
One of the things that is powerful, and that I respect about people like Reed Hastings at Netflix is that he was able to build a business that got important decisions right when he himself was wrong about them. In the book I talk about a couple of them.
He was dead-flat wrong about the utility of downloading to the Netflix app. He thought it wouldn’t be very useful at all; it’s incredibly useful.
He was wrong about the importance of kids’ programming for Netflix. And he admits this in the book, No Rules Rules that he wrote with Erin Meyer.
He successfully worked hard on building a company that would correct him, the boss, the high status prestigious person at the top of the organization. It’s part of this great geek norm of openness that I talk about. How do you build a company that will get it right when the person at the top of the org chart is wrong? Man, that’s a hard problem.
ADI IGNATIUS:
It’s a hard problem. And I’m sure some people are going to read your book and think, “Hang on, a lot of these companies we’re talking about are Silicon Valley startups or somewhere in that realm.” The popular perception is these are not cultures that you necessarily want to emulate. They’re often male-dominated bro-cultures. The boss frequently is an overly demanding bully. How do you square all this?
ANDREW MCAFEE:
There clearly is some of that going on in the Valley. There are toxic cultures. You mentioned the bro-culture. I would say that Theranos is one of the most toxic cultures I’ve ever heard about, and it was headquartered in Silicon Valley.
I don’t think those are geek companies at all. They might be in the right geographic location, but they’re not following the geek way, which is about these norms and about creating a culture that is fast-moving, free-flowing, argumentative, autonomous, evidence-driven, and pretty egalitarian. That’s the goal of the geek way.
Now you point out some of these companies that I do think follow the geek way that are still too pale, stale, and male. That’s absolutely true. The evidence is pretty clear on this. I hope that gets better over time.
But Adi, you said something that I disagree with, that a lot of these cultures that are not good places to work. That’s true in some cases. Remember when LinkedIn did its top attractors survey, I believe in 2016, they said, look, we’re just going to look at objective criteria. We’re going to look at which company pages get viewed the most often by LinkedIn members. Which companies get the most interest from LinkedIn members, the most applications, and where do people stick around when they take their first job?
The top 11 attractors in the LinkedIn list were all companies headquartered on the West Coast in the industry that we loosely call tech. The geek culture is an extremely attractive culture to work in.
ADI IGNATIUS:
Some of these founders, entrepreneurs who got into whatever they got into because they wanted to make the world a better place, Serge and Larry in their garage trying to systematize our access to all the world’s information, these great ideals: when they are actually running companies, they not only are trying to run a company, but they become killers, wanting to wipe out the competition, to foster monopolistic practices, to just grab as much market sharing as possible.
ANDREW MCAFEE:
Is any of this new? Within the businesses? No, I’m serious. Were the businesses of previous eras cuddly? Did they want their competitors to succeed? Were they trying to rise all boats?
Capitalism is an inherently competitive process. These companies are very, very good performers. If you want to use the adjective “killer” for them, I think that’s by design. You’re not in business not to succeed. You want to grow your market share. You want to grow your profits, you want grow. That is often at the expense of somebody else.
I think it’s for the courts to decide whether they meet the definition of monopolist. It’s a word we toss around a lot. The courts so far have tossed out a lot of the recent lawsuits against some of these giant tech companies. I don’t think they meet the definition of monopolist. In general, for a lot of these companies, the competition is one click away.
And is Tesla a monopolist in the auto industry? You simply can’t make that case. SpaceX has become pretty close to a monopolist in the rockets and satellites industry, but they didn’t start that way, and they’ve become so large and influential because they do the job better.
ADI IGNATIUS:
Let’s talk about companies that are doing it right. This is not universally for digital companies. Some follow the geek way, as you’ve laid it out, some don’t.
How many companies, large, small, digital, otherwise live into these principles, do you think?
ANDREW MCAFEE:
I think that’s a really interesting question, and I don’t have a great way to answer it yet. Because the only way that I can think to answer it is to administer a survey to everybody and get them to fill it out. That’s just not going to work.
But you can look at what we know about the cultures at these companies. You can also look at the fantastic Culture 500 research that Don and Charlie Sull did, published in a competitor magazine of yours, Sloan Management Review. They grabbed all the LinkedIn reviews and put them through a machine-learning analysis to see what companies’ own employees said about them.
Three areas I was most interested in were execution, agility, and innovation. And wow, the scores for companies clustered on the West Coast, clustered in Silicon Valley, clustered in industries that we call high-tech, those scores are off the charts. There’s not any real competition for them.
There’s something brewing on the West Coast in industries that we label (for reasons that I don’t like very much) high-tech. There’s something brewing that’s new, that is different than what’s going on elsewhere in the economy, and it’s pretty demonstrably powerful. The label that I hang on that is the geek way.
ADI IGNATIUS:
Was Steve Jobs a geek, and did his Apple follow the geek way or was that a different model?
ANDREW MCAFEE:
Jobs has some really classic non-geek characteristics. He believed that he knew best. He had a very, very large ego. He also screamed at his subordinates all the time, which I think is absolutely not what an open leader does.
However, I interviewed Eric Schmidt for the book, and I brought this up to him and he said, “Look, I was on Apple’s board for a while. I knew Steve pretty well.” He said Steve was a tough person in all those ways, but he learned that if you want to stay on top, you have to listen to the people around you. You have to stop thinking that you have all the answers.
We see a really clear example of that with the App Store. Jobs did not want to open up his beautiful, perfect walled garden iPhone to outside developers. He had to be talked into it. He eventually realized that he was wrong about that. There is a little bit of that openness going on.
One thing that Apple is pretty fanatic about, as I understand it, is they make decisions based on evidence. And whether or not that’s a huge AB testing infrastructure is one thing. Apple loves to demo features, and gets everybody in the room to look at this and say, for example, is it better to have blurry portrait photos where you can adjust the blur before you take the picture? The instant they did a demo, they had the answer to that question. They did not sit around and argue from their different points of view. They said, OK, let’s run an experiment. Let’s do a demo here. That’s an extremely geeky approach.